Curse

Trub · May 30, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case. If they really did care then they would have hit the problem before it became widespread, and irritated their beloved community for months.

huh?

The beloved community is just peachy, as a matter of fact..thar be parties in full swing at HA INT1.
Me thinks the only ones that are irrated at the moment, are the cheaters that got dhuumed.
Folks get tired of the whole:
BAWWWW! I only wanted to see what it was like! (folks get STD's in RL pulling that one.)
My disabled cousin's brother was on my computer!! (erm, more supervision maybe?)
The map hack from the wiki wouldn't work right, I HAD to get 'the upgrade' on hax4U.com!! (le-sigh)
C'mon guys..stop acting like forum lawyers with the analogies....ANet/NCsoft PAY for their lawyers. they done sifted thru all of these probabilities!
WAIT for your final responses from support..(IF you really had the stones to put in a ticket)
But, do carry on with the 'debates' on 'level of punishment'...it does makes me chuckle over my cornflakes...

EDIT: <3 Sonata!!
(and Del too..even tho his posts were mod-wiped)

-Sonata- · May 30, 2010, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashius

QFT.

It seems that a lot of you PvE'ers don't realise how may high-end respected players have been banned due to maybe trying the bot once. Some of these players were even people who have played the game for 5 years, never obtained one black mark, and get the same treatment as Asgas Gsgkasf who is controlled by a gold farming company, just because they injected once.

Those high-end, respected, players who never had a black mark and who have been around for 5 years are exactly the ones who should have known better than everyone else. They are the ones who should have set the example of honesty. If you've been around for 5 years than you know better than anyone else that botting, even for a second, is not permitted and you're risking a permenant ban. They should have been the ones telling others to stop botting. They should have been the ones on the side of solving the issue instead of contributing to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancing gnome

This is my biggest issue with the recent bans. If they had taken action sooner and more consistently, a lot of the people would have never broken the rules in the first place. You can say they broke the rules and should be banned all you like, that will never change the reality that by holding back on taking action or even saying something, Arena Net allowed the botting to spread to players it never would have in the first place.

I'll repeat something in my earlier post. How many times does the community need to be warned? How many log-in announcements, bannings, and forums posts does it take before some get the message? The policy has always been if you bot, you're at risk. Action has been taken over the years in regards to bots and exploits. I'll reference the mass bans regarding the hidden out post in DoA again as one example of the actions taken against cheating.

It still seems though, that even after this Wednesday, some still haven't gotten the message.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

Also, there are lots of people who have played the game for years without getting banned or reported. There is nothing extraordinary about it that entitles them to special treatment

And yet it was just argued that respected, high-end players, that have been around for 5 years, got the boot. So which is it?

Ashius · May 30, 2010, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

huh?

The beloved community is just peachy, as a matter of fact..thar be parties in full swing at HA INT1.
Me thinks the only ones that are irrated at the moment, are the cheaters that got dhuumed.
Folks get tired of the whole:
BAWWWW! I only wanted to see what it was like! (folks get STD's in RL pulling that one.)
My disabled cousin's brother was on my computer!! (erm, more supervision maybe?)
The map hack from the wiki wouldn't work right, I HAD to get 'the upgrade' on hax4U.com!! (le-sigh)
C'mon guys..stop acting like forum lawyers with the analogies....ANet/NCsoft PAY for their lawyers. they done sifted thru all of these probabilities!
WAIT for your final responses from support..(IF you really had the stones to put in a ticket)
But, do carry on with the 'debates' on 'level of punishment'...it does makes me chuckle over my cornflakes...

EDIT: <3 Sonata!!
(and Del too..even tho his posts were mod-wiped)

I find it almost humourous that you used over 100 words to contribute nothing of value to this discussion. What we are discussing is that there are varying levels of offence, and as such there should be varying levels of punishment. And analogies don't make us lawyers, analogies are used to compare a current situation to a hypothetical situation that is similar.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

I'll repeat something in my earlier post. How many times does the community need to be warned? How many log-in announcements, bannings, and forums posts does it take before some get the message? The policy has always been if you bot, you're at risk. Action has been taken over the years in regards to bots and exploits. I'll reference the mass bans regarding the hidden out post in DoA again as one example of the actions taken against cheating.

Good to find another intelligent individual here. But I have to disagree, it was obvious that the bots in their current form were to become an epidemic, yet A-Net chose to wait before taking action. And it had been going on for a huge period, long enough to cause some to quit. It just seems that A-Net are using this as a quick-fix PR scheme before GW2.

dancing gnome · May 30, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

I'll repeat something in my earlier post. How many times does the community need to be warned? How many log-in announcements, bannings, and forums posts does it take before some get the message? The policy has always been if you bot, you're at risk. Action has been taken over the years in regards to bots and exploits. I'll reference the mass bans regarding the hidden out post in DoA again as one example of the actions taken against cheating.

And yet there was huge thread demanding a response about botting from A-Net which went untouched for ages. They even said they were deliberately avoiding commenting on the issue. This seems like the opposite of what they should have been doing.

snaek · May 30, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dancing gnome

And yet there was huge thread demanding a response about botting from A-Net which went untouched for ages. They even said they were deliberately avoiding commenting on the issue. This seems like the opposite of what they should have been doing.

this. truth is, the little guy got hurt more than the big guy.

rmt botting has always existed. to think otherwise is foolish. has rmt botting been on the rise for this action to be justified? no. will rmt botting continue to happen? yes.

the 3700 imo was to fix pvp botting. which it has, but a lot of the penalties were overkill imo. pvp botting i don't believe required such unjustified actions to fix the problem. did it work? yes. was it handled well? no.

Trub · May 30, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

And analogies don't make us lawyers, analogies are used to compare a current situation to a hypothetical situation that is similar.

Yeah, right.
Here, I have one for you:
Here's a turd, look..I painted it pink and put sprinkles onnit!
It's a cupcake!

pfffft.
Quit with the comparisons of the ORIGINAL offense(s), call it what it IS, and what the punishment IS:
Botting/game manipulation/exploiting= BAN.
Any gaming company with a hint of scruples knows how to handle these problems.
They have no use for mercy, their profits are the ones at risk, not to mention the entertainment value of HONEST customers,....not some kid butt hurt because he can't be 'uber-leet' anymore.
You don't need to 'flower it up' with 'analogies', it is what it is.

sixdartbart · May 30, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashius

it was obvious that the bots in their current form were to become an epidemic, yet A-Net chose to wait before taking action. And it had been going on for a huge period, long enough to cause some to quit. It just seems that A-Net are using this as a quick-fix PR scheme before GW2.

Which is it, Anet waited too long to do anything or they rushed out with a quick fix?

When I see people arguing both sides of an issue it makes me suspect they may just be trying to argue.

Kiky · May 30, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

Those high-end, respected, players who never had a black mark and who have been around for 5 years are exactly the ones who should have known better than everyone else. They are the ones who should have set the example of honesty. If you've been around for 5 years than you know better than anyone else that botting, even for a second, is not permitted and you're risking a permenant ban. They should have been the ones telling others to stop botting. They should have been the ones on the side of solving the issue instead of contributing to it.

I'll repeat something in my earlier post. How many times does the community need to be warned? How many log-in announcements, bannings, and forums posts does it take before some get the message? The policy has always been if you bot, you're at risk. Action has been taken over the years in regards to bots and exploits. I'll reference the mass bans regarding the hidden out post in DoA again as one example of the actions taken against cheating.

It still seems though, that even after this Wednesday, some still haven't gotten the message.

And yet it was just argued that respected, high-end players, that have been around for 5 years, got the boot. So which is it?

What can the high-end players do if a public bot is being overused in which game the admins don't do anything and let the problem be widespread?
I know the answer, high-end players MUST learn to play against bots therefore some of them should try it cause its the best way of making a tactic against them.
Lot of the 4000 banned accounts were actually high-end players who did that and got same punishment as a guy who's selling out the shit of this game by making real money from ectos, or maybe even stricter cause most of the money sellers haven't get ban. And if they have been banned they would just hacked another acc and start it over again while the 5 years old players that are an active part of the community disappear.
I'm not saying the bot triers should just get away with it but a 2 weeks or 1 month ban would have shown that anet does care and the bot is not undetected. But obviously they couldnt have those flashy title with their unber pro ultimate bot protection.

Mithie · May 30, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

What we are discussing is that there are varying levels of offence, and as such there should be varying levels of punishment.

There is. If you botted once or twice, you had your main account banned. If you're a habitual botter, you got every linked account plus your IP banned.

Ashius · May 30, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

Yeah, right.
Here, I have one for you:
Here's a turd, look..I painted it pink and put sprinkles onnit!
It's a cupcake!

pfffft.
Quit with the comparisons of the ORIGINAL offense(s), call it what it IS, and what the punishment IS:
Botting/game manipulation/exploiting= BAN.
Any gaming company with a hint of scruples knows how to handle these problems.
They have no use for mercy, their profits are the ones at risk, not to mention the entertainment value of HONEST customers,....not some kid butt hurt because he can't be 'uber-leet' anymore.
You don't need to 'flower it up' with 'analogies', it is what it is.

I obviously need to flower it up more then, because you still seem to have no clue what I'm talking about. The punishment for a first offence for scamming is something like a 24-48 hour ban. That is surely more detrimental to the community than the player who takes an interrupt bot to Isle of the Nameless to see how it works. Yet the latter is more likely to receive the harsher punishment.

EDIT:
@sixdartbart - sorry if i was unclear, I was stating that they intentionally took too long to fix it so that they could quick-fix their declining reputation that they didn't care about GW1.

@Mithie - That actually isn't the case, there are numerous abusers who I've seen bragging on their mains that A-Net has only banned the accounts they have actually used the bot on. And IP bans aren't exactly hard to get around.

Mithie · May 30, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

That is surely more detrimental to the community than the player who takes an interrupt bot to Isle of the Nameless to see how it works. Yet the latter is more likely to receive the harsher punishment.

No, they're not the same, at all. Scamming relies on complicity of the scammed party. Botting does not.

The fact of the matter is, botting is against the rules that Anet clearly laid out.

It doesn't matter the circumstances under which you bot. You broke the rule. You will be punished.

It's that simple.

Quote:

@Mithie - That actually isn't the case, there are numerous abusers who I've seen bragging on their mains that A-Net has only banned the accounts they have actually used the bot on.

Sure. I've seem people bragging on the internet that they have 16 inch dongs. I'd trust Anet over someone over the internet who may or may not be telling the truth.

Quote:

And IP bans aren't exactly hard to get around.

Account bans are.

Gli · May 30, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashius

I obviously need to flower it up more then, because you still seem to have no clue what I'm talking about. The punishment for a first offence for scamming is something like a 24-48 hour ban. That is surely more detrimental to the community than the player who takes an interrupt bot to Isle of the Nameless to see how it works. Yet the latter is more likely to receive the harsher punishment.

No, you're completely wrong there.

A first scamming offence is an offense to a small amount of players, often only a single one.

Using a bot for any reason or in any way, is an offense to the integrity of the game.

Trub · May 30, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashius

I obviously need to flower it up more then, because you still seem to have no clue what I'm talking about. The punishment for a first offence for scamming is something like a 24-48 hour ban. That is surely more detrimental to the community than the player who takes an interrupt bot to Isle of the Nameless to see how it works. Yet the latter is more likely to receive the harsher punishment.

Thank you..this is more like it.

And yes, ANet has already decided the punishment..BAN.
Nothing any one of us can say will change that decision.
ANet is going thru the support tickets of the few that had the balls to put one in contesting it (their BAN).
Again, analogies, and venting here on Guru is great fun...but it all comes down to the simple fact:
The banned didn't read the EULA very closely, or not at all.
They were banned for breaking the EULA.
Giving them false hopes on a game forum is fubar....let them get their respective answers from ANET/NCsoft.

cebalrai · May 30, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

The rationalizations people are making here are hilarious and pathetic.

"Anet MADE us bot! It's their fault we botted! They MADE us cheat! There was no other choice! The cheaters are the victims here!"

How come I had a choice?

Kiky · May 30, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

Yeah, right.
Here, I have one for you:
Here's a turd, look..I painted it pink and put sprinkles onnit!
It's a cupcake!

pfffft.
Quit with the comparisons of the ORIGINAL offense(s), call it what it IS, and what the punishment IS:
Botting/game manipulation/exploiting= BAN.
Any gaming company with a hint of scruples knows how to handle these problems.
They have no use for mercy, their profits are the ones at risk, not to mention the entertainment value of HONEST customers,....not some kid butt hurt because he can't be 'uber-leet' anymore.
You don't need to 'flower it up' with 'analogies', it is what it is.

Yes every company knows how to handle bots, but seems like anet doesnt know. If the botting is so widespread then the game developers should think what they did wrong and the same action which would have worked BEFORE the problem was so common will NOT work if every third players are using a bot. I've played many games from many different company but yet anet surprised me again...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

No, they're not the same, at all. Scamming relies on complicity of the scammed party. Botting does not.

The fact of the matter is, botting is against the rules that Anet clearly laid out.

It doesn't matter the circumstances under which you bot. You broke the rule. You will be punished.

It's that simple.

Sure. I've seem people bragging on the internet that they have 16 inch dongs. I'd trust Anet over someone over the internet who may or may not be telling the truth.

Account bans are.

Ofc bots need to be punished but when a problem is so widespread and players who have never botted before and are a part of the community for 5 yrs then the punishment shouldn't be permanent ban...

Jinkies · May 30, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I don't really get Anet's motives behind banning everybody. A simple fix preventing .dll injection months ago would have prevented any PvP or PvE title bots, it would have prevented alot of players from getting banned and it would have taken alot less time to implement.

If Anet had even gone as far as to post in a login announcment saying that they will be more vigilant about traking botters how many people do you think would have stopped botting and would still be here right now?

Whenever a certain exploit becomes well known Anet has always (eventually) gotten around to fixing it, and on very few occasions were bans ever given. How is botting any different? How many of you bashing all the people who got banned right now also participated in the Duncan exploit, or RR, or run speed books? Heck if stealing rare minis and thousands of ectos only earns you a two week ban (and often you get to keep the stolen goods after) how can one argue that botting your Asura title and earning 200k along the way is merit for a perma ban?

All of the above are violations of the EULA, but only one was worthy of severe punishment? Is there not a difference between someone who RRed for one quest day and someone who RRed for months and got high commander titles?

Mithie · May 30, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiky

Yes every company knows how to handle bots, but seems like anet doesnt know. If the botting is so widespread then the game developers should think what they did wrong and the same action which would have worked BEFORE the problem was so common will NOT work if every third players are using a bot. I've played many games from many different company but yet anet surprised me again...

Let's take a look at what Anet did here.

1. People were botting.
2. Anet is made aware of this.
3. Anet hires technical staff to detect these bots.
4. Anet bans the botters.

This sounds like a fantastic job on Anet's part to me.

Quote:

Ofc bots need to be punished but when a problem is so widespread and players who have never botted before and are a part of the community for 5 yrs then the punishment shouldn't be permanent ban...

Okay, you're mixing up two different issues here.

1. Bots need to be punished.
2. Innocent people who were wrongly punished should be righted.

In the case of the 2nd issue, if you're innocent, Anet has said that their support staff will review your ticket and address it, if you are really innocent.

So there you go. If you haven't been botting but was caught in the ban, email Anet support.

On the other hand, if you've been playing this game for 5 years, botted once, and got banned, YOU DESERVE IT.

Because veterancy and seniority does not exonerate you from the rules.

It's silly to expect them to address your complaint over Memorial Day weekend, though.

Quote:

I don't really get Anet's motives behind banning everybody. A simple fix preventing .dll injection months ago would have prevented any PvP or PvE title bots, it would have prevented alot of players from getting banned and it would have taken alot less time to implement.

Preventing DLL injection IS NOT EASY. It's not a feasible technical solution. They could embed detectors to fit certain patterns known to popular bots, then exit(1) the process, but that would require quite a bit of work and could potentially lead to fatal bugs.

The fact of the matter is, you're not EVER going to stop people from injecting code into your program. It's just a fact of the technology we have to work with.

It also makes circumventing the safemeasure a piece of cake for bot programmers.

The whole point of this exercise is that bot programmers are kept in the dark about how Anet is detecting bots.

Ashius · May 30, 2010, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

No, they're not the same, at all. Scamming relies on complicity of the scammed party. Botting does not.

The fact of the matter is, botting is against the rules that Anet clearly laid out.

It doesn't matter the circumstances under which you bot. You broke the rule. You will be punished.

It's that simple.

Sure. I've seem people bragging on the internet that they have 16 inch dongs. I'd trust Anet over someone over the internet who may or may not be telling the truth.

Account bans are.

But for the offenders who are the ones ruining our economy by mass farming, account bans do nothing as they just steal/buy more accounts. This wave of bans seem to hit the little guy harder than the main offenders.

@Gli - The integrity of the game was in jeopardy for months up until now, yet A-Net waited until now to deal with it? They didn't ban to maintain the game's integrity, if they did they would have stopped the problem in December last year. They banned for publicity, and it seems to have worked.

Kiky · May 30, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Let's take a look at what Anet did here.

1. People were botting.
2. Anet is made aware of this.
3. Anet hires technical staff to detect these bots.
4. Anet bans the botters.

This sounds like a fantastic job on Anet's part to me.

Okay, you're mixing up two different issues here.

1. Bots need to be punished.
2. Innocent people who were wrongly punished should be righted.

In the case of the 2nd issue, if you're innocent, Anet has said that their support staff will review your ticket and address it, if you are really innocent.

So there you go. If you haven't been botting but was caught in the ban, email Anet support.

On the other hand, if you've been playing this game for 5 years, botted once, and got banned, YOU DESERVE IT.

Because veterancy and seniority does not exonerate you from the rules.

It's silly to expect them to address your complaint over Memorial Day weekend, though.

Okay let's take a look, anet didn't even care about pvp bots for 1 year so what do they expect? Won't it be widespread?
If u go to isle of nameless for a few times to see how the bot works, well i don't think it's a so earthshaking crime that has to be ended in a permanent ban.
Also there are big differences between players winning trims with bots, and simply trying it. Both ended in perma ban but their cape is still gold/silver. Doesn't sound so fair to me.

Ashius · May 30, 2010, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Let's take a look at what Anet did here.

1. People were botting.
2. Anet is made aware of this.
3. Anet hires technical staff to detect these bots.
4. Anet bans the botters.

This sounds like a fantastic job on Anet's part to me.

Let me modify this to reality:

1. People were botting.
2. Anet is made aware of this.
~6 months pass, problem becomes an epidemic~
4. Anet bans the botters.
5. Anet hires technical staff to detect these bots.

It could have been stopped immediately after 2.